Episode 3: Art About Us, by Us! In Conversation with Justice Dwight
Episode Notes:
Justice Dwight (they/she/he)
Justice Dwight is a full-time multimedia artist based in Richmond, VA!
@justicedwight on instagram
Justice’s shop (Justice released this silk scarf!)
Contact Justice for a custom portrait.
P.s.!!! >>> She’s working on a new style than what we’ve seen of her so far—be sure to keep up with what’s next for Justice Dwight!
Art we mentioned in this interview:
Justice Dwight’s piece about two stories converging
Justice Dwight’s mural in Cuba, following the prompt about “Internal Conflict”
Here are links to everything else we mentioned in this episode!
Episode 71 of Dem Bois podcast by Shawn Aaron with Dr. Liam Johnson
Some photos from my photoshoot with Hunter!
See this post on instagram!
See this post on instagram!
See this post on instagram!
See this post on instagram!
WR: Hello everyone. Welcome to Episode Three of The Gender is A Journey Podcast. My name's Willow Rising. I use they them pronouns. I am a trans gender fluid non-binary human. I am a multiracial Black person, I am autistic, I have ADHD, and I also have synesthesia.
And today I'm super excited to share an interview that I had with a guest, an artist named Justice Dwight! Justice and I had a really great conversation that I'm so excited to share with you. I feel really blessed and really privileged that we got to sit down and have this discussion. Justice shared so much and was so vulnerable about the work that she creates and what she does and what is behind the work that she creates. In this episode, we really get to talk about a lot of cool stuff. We talked about fashion, we talked about job choices, we talked about life pivots and changes. There's a lot here. I hope you enjoy. I will say the audio does get a little bit glitchy towards the end. I did my best to piece it together that I am doing this on the fly with what I've got. So thank you so much for listening, and this is the beginning. This is where we're at.
Okay, so with that, let's get into the interview.
WR: Hi, Justice. Justice Dwight. Am I saying that correctly?
JD: Yes. Hi, how are you?
WR: Good, good. How are you?
JD: I'm doing all right. Happy to be.
WR: Hey, could you share with all of us what your pronouns are? And also if there's anything you'd like to describe about your gender preferences in terms of what feels affirming, what kind of language feels affirming for you?
JD: Okay, so my pronouns, I kind of go by all of them. I feel comfortable with them all because I feel like depending on the moment I represent all of them. I kind of feel like if you choose one for me, just stick with that one. I'm never offended if someone's like, oh, well, I said she by accident, and I'm like, well, no, she's fine. That's fine with me. You don't have to feel weird about it. But they also reaffirming. I feel like just when you pick one, you got to stick with it. Don't switch up on me. If that's how you perceive me in that moment, then that's fine.
WR: Yeah, yeah. I got you. So you're like, just go with the one that you want. Because some people like to mix it up, but you're like, no, no. Stick with what the vibe for you.
JD: That's my go-to. I'm like, just stick with that one. That's cool.
WR: Yeah. And so you are a full-time mixed media artist. Can you share more about the work that you create?
JD: I create a lot of work that's centered around identity and a lot of work that's kind of is centered around representation as well. I felt like when I first started, I was going to galleries and I wasn't seeing a lot of work. I mean, I saw a lot of work about us. It just wasn't by us, and that's on a local level. I had no idea that you could look that at that time. You could look out into the world and find all these different types of artists, making all these different types of things. In that very moment, in a very small pocket of the world. I said, I'm just going to make the work that I want to see what I felt was missing. And that's kind of how it started.
WR: Wow, okay. And so I feel like I know what you're talking about when you say for us by us, but do you mean specifically Black queer people?
JD: I do. I mean, when I was seeing works in spaces, it would be work, it would be of us, but it just was not by any Black queer people at all. And I would always be like, I mean, this is nice, but you're not accurately depicting or accurately telling these stories. And it gets to a place of when you're doing portraiture, for example, you have to know your subject to some degree at least, I would hope you do, but I didn't even think that the people creating the works were having appropriate conversations to even be allowed to create some of the work they were creating.
WR: I feel this so much. I'm so appreciative that you brought this up and it sounds like it spurred you to be like, did it kind of piss you off?
JD: It did, because again, I was 18 and I was like, oh, this is first Friday. This is so cool. Every first Friday, the month they're doing, these galleries are open, and then you see the work, and then you see the artist and you're like, Hmm. I'm like, hmm okay. But also, no, it bothered me.
WR: Yeah, that's very real. I feel like that's something I've kind of started to pay attention to, especially with reading graphic novels, looking at, oh, who illustrated this though? And then seeing that, oh, the characters might all be Black or other racialized people of the global majority, and then the illustrator is a white person, and it's like, oh, I definitely know that there are tons of Black illustrators illustrating who are completely qualified and can do the work and honestly probably need the work literally for the income for their portfolio.
JD: It's hard out here. When I think about it, it really is. And when I said I didn't really see it, it's because I was just thinking of in my actual area here in Richmond, Virginia, I was not really what it was the beginning of Instagram days. So I was starting to see different types of artists through the internet. Then I was on Tumblr and I saw different artists. Tumblr. I was like, okay, this is cool. That's the kind of artists I want to be those artists I was seeing online.
WR: Yeah. Okay. So would you mind talking about your childhood and art stuff and maybe also where your, let's see, where did queerness come into your life for you? If that's something that you want to share about?
JD: Sure. I don't mind. I feel like for me, my childhood was really, it was pretty open. I had a really good childhood. I felt I always felt loved and cared for by my parents who honestly have always supported anything I've ever wanted to do. My dad actually used to paint a lot. He used to paint, and he's actually how I learned how to paint because he's colorblind, and I would stay up late and mix his colors and watching me. And in turn, he taught me all the things that he knows about art and creating. And once I really fell in love with it at such a young age, through him, I decided to, when I was in school, always take art classes. If it was ceramics or something, I was always doing something with art. My mom is actually a doll collector, so she collects all black dolls, Barbie brats, my scene celebrity dolls, real looking baby dolls. If you could think about it doll wise, she probably has it.
WR: Wow.
JD: But growing up and seeing the dolls just dress super cool and seeing them just displayed all around the house really was inspiring to some of my color choices and patterns I choose in my work. And yeah, I don't know. I feel like I had a really good childhood. I feel like for me, I think I understood my queer identity pretty early on and just in a sense of like, oh, most people say that at this point you would have a crush on this type of person. And I had a crush on a different type of person, and I knew that really early on because I think it was what I was in, I was actually probably in kindergarten, and I remember there was a little boy on the bus who was maybe two years older than I was, two or three years older than I was, and I always wanted to trade Pokemon cards with him, and I'd always trade him the best cards I had, even though he had nothing good to trade. At the time I didn't see it. But then as I kept getting older, I said, oh, wow. So that was my first crush.
WR: Oh my gosh, that’s so adorable. Thank you for sharing. Oh my gosh. Given the best Pokemon cards, doesn't matter.
JD: The best! The holographic ones, I, and I should have kept some of those actually looking back.
WR: Yes. Oh, that's so precious. And this is okay. Wow. Okay, so you come from artists and it's cool to hear how thinking of the pattern, because in your art, your art is very vibrant. There's a lot of texture. I mean, you are a mixed media artist, so there is a lot of different texture, but there's also a lot of different patterns. And I can just imagine how that, I don't know. I'm just thinking about the clothes that the dolls are wearing, how that could later be woven into your art, and also learning about your dad and your dad being colorblind and mixing his paints like, wow.
JD: No, I appreciate that. I literally also think her dolls inspired my personal style too.
WR: Okay. I was going to say, because I was like, you have great fashion sense. Yeah. Yeah. I really like your style. I think that I came across your work, honestly through Instagram. I'm kind of on Instagram a lot, and I just look on the explore page and stuff will pop up. And I think one of the first things I noticed about your work, well, one definitely how it's just, it's so visibly queer and I have such an appreciation and affinity for visible queerness. I think that for me, as a late in life, I was going to say as a late in life, everything person as a late in life queer person, as a latent life trans person, as a person who's gender fluid and really exploring what all of that means for me in terms of how I orient in the world. I so appreciate seeing people who are doing and creating things that really defy the status quo. And also very vibrantly honestly create the kind of culture that I want to see in the world, truly. And so that super comes through in your work for me. And then I think the second thing I noticed was that you used in your Instagram bio, it was he all the pronouns. And I was like, oh, okay. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
JD: Thank you. That means a lot to me. You have no idea. You have no clue.
WR: No. Yeah, your work is stunning. It's beautiful. I think that you have such an incredible style. It's so stylized. It's super cool. And let's see, I've got a few of your pieces up. Okay. So there's one that you did for my VPM, and it is so cute, and also it is two people, let's say, who have short haircuts and their profiles are together and their foreheads are touching. And something that I love about it also is the, I think of them stickers on their face. But yeah. Okay. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about this piece?
JD: Of course. That piece I really wanted, I wanted to show intimacy and I wanted to show love in a different kind of way. And I really thought about just the love we share for one another, and even if it doesn't seem like to other people to make sense, it makes sense to us. I made sure that the stickers were different on purpose because it kind of represents these two paths being completely different, but coming together anyway, despite whatever anyone else might have to say or do or whatever. These two people are clearly sharing a moment together for a reason. And I also really like that in this piece. I wanted to shout out it being retro. It's kind of very nineties, which is one of my favorite things.
WR: Oh, I love that. Oh my gosh. Thank you for sharing that. One of the figures has pink stars as the stickers, and the other figure has, there's multicolor green or teal or yellow or orange rectangles and circles on it. So that detail is really, really cool to learn about.
JD: Thank you. Yeah, it's on the one figure, it's kind of like confetti, and then the other figure is the stars, and together they're creating their own little universe.
WR: Wow. Oh my gosh. Okay. That's so rich. Thank you so much.
JD: No, no problem. I appreciate you.
WR: Okay, so this other one I've got is of you and it's one of your Instagram posts. Let's see, you said in the caption, my super talented friend whose Instagram handle is at MX BX shot these photos of me during Gemini season. Oh, your season. And so you're wearing this very beautiful top, this blouse that has lots of colors on it, lots of pattern, and also a beret. So this makes me think of your style too, and it just seems like vibrant colors is really part of how you express yourself.
JD: It is, and it's really strange. I think it's my Gemini sun, honestly, because being a Scorpio rising, most people would say that I would be more attracted to dark colors or dark silhouettes, just like blacks or dark navy blues. They're like, oh, that's a Scorpio rising thing. And I am. But on the other end of that, everything's really rainbow bright.
WR: Yeah. Yeah.
JD: It's like a good mix of both. But most times, nine times out of 10 when I wake up, I feel like wearing something bright, and I feel like when you get dressed in the morning, you should kind of dress for your mood, or you should dress to enhance your mood. So you got to think about it like this. I asked myself, and I actually started asking myself this because of my fiance, but I was like, what color do I feel like today? And then I associate that color with my mood and my feelings, and then I kind of gravitated towards the clothes from there.
WR: Oh, okay. This is cool. I am so glad that we've got here. For me, fashion is a big part of my gender expression and just how I feel like myself. It's really a big part of what helps me get out the door in the morning. I'm like, okay, I got to like how I'm looking. And it's not that that's everything, but when I think about how I feel and me wanting to feel good and grounded and safe and comfortable and confident in the world, that's where fashion plays a big part of it for me. I love that.
JD: Yeah.
WR: So let's see. Would you be down to talk about what are some of your color associations and what would that do for your mood?
JD: Honestly, it is kind of interesting because for me, I'm a big pink person. I love the color pink. Me too. And it is like that for me is always going to be associated with good feelings and good vibes. So my nails are typically almost not always pink, but most times I gravitate towards pink. And then the Purple Beret is actually my favorite beret, mostly because it reminds me of my grandmother. Purple was her color and
WR: Royalty.
JD: You see? So when I see this purple bere, I'm like, Ooh, I got to put that on you. It doesn't go with what I have on. I don't care. I'm putting on the purple beret because it just reminds me of her. And then I wear this chain almost every day. It says my name and it has the Gemini symbol in the middle, but my parents got this made for me a couple years ago, and I just wear it all the time.
WR: Adding the astrology symbol into that. Okay, first of all, I feel like that's going to start a trend, and seriously, because that is so clutch, of course, the nameplate, but adding in the astrology there, your parents really know you and they love you.
JD: They know and love me down when I say they know that Gemini is a big part of just the things that make me up. So they were like, no, we got to include that.
WR: That's so cute. Okay, I love that.
JD: And for context, my mom is a Taurus and my dad is an Aquarius.
WR: Ooh, okay. So Taurus, I think of comfort, luxury, pleasure, and Aquarius, I think of big thinker, weird, curious, introspective, but also very eccentric.
JD: Oh, you've got them down. Yeah, you've got them down. And it's funny, I was talking to my mom yesterday about my style, and I was like, I don't know. When it switched from comfort clothes to, I feel like everything I own is almost like dress up. I'm getting dressed up every day. And I was like, I don't know what happened. I said, I feel like I used to have a sweatsuit. I said, I don't have a sweatsuit anymore. I said, I actually was thinking about it. I said, I actually think I want to invest a little bit more in athleisure for my closet. I said, because that's the thing that I felt was missing. I said, on days when you just want to be super comfortable, I said, I was like, where's the sweatsuit? And I found one a few years ago, I did a popup with JD Sports in Times Square, and they let me pick out clothes to keep, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is so cool. So I picked out this sleeveless tank top pink, but I didn't get the matching pants because they didn't have it. So I got these random blue pants and I was thrifting, I want to say a couple months ago, and I found the pants that matched the top.
WR: No way.
JD: Years later, I don't know how, and mind you, I live in Virginia,
WR: I was about to say?
JD: So I was like, oh, the pants fit. So I bought the pants. When I tell you this summer, I wore that sweatsuit out because it was just like, oh, this is bright, it's pink. I was like, it's comfortable. It's breathable. I was like, I need some more things like this on days where I don't feel like doing a whole lot, but I'm still want to do a little something. I don't know how I got there, but I say all that to say when I see the color pink, I get really obsessed and excited about that. I talked about purple for me, dark colors like black, I like to play with black, but more so with shapes and textures, maybe less of it just being one flat thing, but I like to add a bow or a puffy sleeve or something like that.
WR: Ooh, okay. Okay. Oh, that's cool. Okay, so first of all, you did a where, because you said pop-up shop for JD Sports in Times Square.
JD: Yeah. And what year was this? It was 2021, and they asked me to take over their storefront window for pride month, and so I got to put art in there and hang up some art, and it was super, super cool. I had never done anything like that. They were like, oh, we've been following you and we want to work with you. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. So it just kind of worked out.
WR: Oh, that's so cool. Is that something that you would do again? Are you looking for those kinds of opportunities?
JD: I would love to do something like that again, honestly, it was really like it's out of this world of experience. When you get to see your art displayed like that and cared for in that way, and in a way that it brings it to the everyday person myself, it's a different way for them to appreciate it because I feel like galleries, as much as I love doing gallery work, I feel like a lot of times galleries feel like an intimidating space. I feel like a lot of times people don't feel like they're welcomed into galleries depending on the vibe or their energy because it feels kind of gate kept. It does. And so I feel like when you're walking past a storefront window, a store that we all probably will just walk in even just to look because we feel comfortable to just look.
WR: That's a really good point. That's a really good point. That is a huge difference between stores and galleries, and particularly I'm thinking about the context of Times Square. Everybody's looking there and there's not that same sense of pressure to engage or to have to shop or to have to do anything. Something else that seems really cool about it being a storefront as well is also, like you said, it allows a different audience to engage with the work and to see the work. I think what you're bringing up about the gatekeeping in museums is actually something that, okay, so I feel like I am an artist, but I am a professionally a graphic designer, and so I have long held the art artist within me separate from my professional pursuits. So I haven't had any sort of gallery shows myself necessarily, or I've participated in a gallery, but it was more not at a museum. So I guess all this to say, as a person who also appreciates art, as an artist myself, I visit museums a lot and I think that is the thing that I'm so critical of a lot of the times is that sometimes there's just such brilliant work that I think the people who either it might be for to see or also who might benefit from seeing it are usually not the people who have the time, space or capacity or resource. I know in the south, a lot of museums I've noticed are free, but up north and in other parts of the country, that's not the case. And so it could be way too expensive to go who even has the capacity to stop and go to a museum during a super busy school schedule if people are parents and have children or are taking care of family.
And by that I'm talking specifically about Black and brown folks who might not have the time. Luxury and everybody's finances are different, but also even the financial capacity to go to a museum and stop and view the work, it really is that I consider a luxury being able to go to a museum.
JD: It is a luxury. I agree. Especially like you said here, a lot of them are free, but then you think about the museum's free, and then you have all these art galleries and the ecosystem that some people haven't even been able to discover because they just haven't had the opportunity to be a part of it.
WR: Yeah. What did you notice? Okay, so you did the storefront, and so would you be down to talk a little bit more about that? Yeah,
JD: Absolutely.
WR: Okay. So as the artist, what was it like doing the behind the scenes of actually setting up the storefront? Did you have a vision in mind? Was there a certain prompt or did they let you do whatever you wanted to do?
JD: They were really like open-minded. They were just kind like, what of your works do you want to display with us? And then they were like, we're going to print it on some silk and we're going to find a way to display the silk, and then if you have any prints that you can send us, we're going to display the prints. And then they wanted me to paint on some of the items of clothing they had there to put in the window on a mannequin. And so I was like, okay, sounds cool. They did all the heavy work they did. I kind of got to just pick the things that I really resonated with at the time and put 'em out there. And I'm really grateful for that actually, because if I wanted something different, I feel like they would've been open to that, or if I had specifics, they would've been really receptive to that. And I think this is also one thing, my point of was black and queer, so I also think when you have certain folks in certain spaces, you see how it runs. I felt very safe. I felt comfortable. I felt like I could express my ideas, and I felt like my work was honored and treated with respect.
WR: Yes
JD: Because certain voices were in certain rooms saying certain things and making sure conversations were being had.
WR: That's so affirming, that's so affirming, because I do think that it's little things like that, somebody who is of the culture being on the inside, who also has the agency and the power to influence, let's say, to be like, because that I think can be a difficult place to be in as well, where that context could be somebody who's also part of a team who has to report back and might have higher ups on their own or other, there could just be other team members internally who might not always hear or be on board with whatever that one person is suggesting, but I'm loving that it all worked out in,
JD: It was seamless if they had any issues. I never saw that there were issues. If there was any pushback or any concerns, never. They were cool as a cucumber that was really grateful.
WR: Yes!! Okay. More of that, more that, that's like, I want more of that. I want to see more of that. I want to hear more of that. I want more of that for you. Yes.
JD: Look, I want more of that for us.
WR: Yes. More
JD: More of that that for us.
WR: Yes. Period. So what was it like? Okay, so you said getting your art printed on scarves, on silk, on silk. Have you ever done stuff like that before?
JD: At that moment, no. That was my first time being introduced to that, and I thought it was just really beautiful because the way they steamed it and they folded it over this, it looked like a painting in the window or a big print, but no one knew it was a silk scarf. And so I thought that was super cool, and that was 2021. And then somewhere within the next few years, I got kind of caught up in doing less art and working retail and working for, I worked for a gallery for a little while, and that was a wild ride. And then I worked for a bunch of different companies doing odd jobs, but the last job that I had stopped at before, I had just lost my mind. They sold a lot of scarves. They still lost scarves. I can't really talk about it too much. I signed an NDA, which also is like,
WR: Got you.
JD: That tells you that this was a wild ride. Got you. Yeah, so I can't talk too much about the product, but I really liked showing people how to tie them. I always thought that was a lot of fun, showing people the different ways they could wear them. And then after I quit, I was just like, I did the scarf once. I said the scarf, it's just the one I said, but I could design my own scarf and it could be really cool. So that's what I decided to do. Recently, I designed some 48 by 48, a hundred percent silk scarves with one of my paintings on it that I am really proud of in this moment. I'm really happy about that.
WR: Yeah. Okay. Congratulations. And also please share more about any of the products and artwork that you have on sale right now.
JD: Oh yeah, of course. I have a lot of prints. I try to do things in different price points because I do want to make art that is accessible for everyone. So I'm like, I have prints that are on the affordable end, and then I have some, what's the word, one of ones or one of 10 kind of prints that are a little more pricey. But then I have original paintings and wood cutouts, and I have stickers, and then I have the scarves, so I have an array of things, and I also do custom work too.
WR: Nice, nice, nice, nice. Would you do custom portraits for people?
JD: Yes, I do custom portraits. Recently I just did a portrait of a man and his dog, and this is my first time ever painting a dog, but it was a fun time. I also, I'm a dog lover. I have a dog, so I was like, oh, this would be fun. I was like, I don't know how this person saw in me that I could paint a dog, but he saw that for me, and so it happened.
WR: Nice. Okay. So if somebody wants a custom portrait from you, what is the process? What do they need to have to be ready to go for their portrait?
JD: Honestly, I think the first thing is to look at my work and make sure that they want something that's in my style because sometimes people can be like, oh, you're an artist, so you can just snap your fingers and make this thing. It doesn't work like that. So if you like my style, then you're like, okay, I want to work with you because I like your work and I don't want something outside of that. And then I feel like have an idea and a point of reference, and then as long as you have those two things and a deposit, we can get moving.
WR: Right, right, right. Okay. That's so key. I think that, yeah, I can understand a lot of people being like, oh, Justice is an artist, so that means she can paint anything. And it's like, that's not exactly how it works.
JD: No, A portfolio, I'll be like, Hey, I don't want to paint cows jumping over the moon. I've never done that. Right,
WR: Right. People should look at your portfolio, make sure they really fuck with your style, because that is the work in your portfolio, is the work that you want to make. It's the work that you make, and it's the work that you want to keep making. So yes, people should definitely look at your portfolio. When you say point of reference, do you mean they should pick one of your pieces that they're like, I really like this one, I'd love to be painted like this. Or do you mean they should have a selfie or a photograph of themselves or something?
JD: Both, because I'm always like, I kind do, and maybe it's the Gemini in me, but I have a hundred different pockets of things that I make. I feel like one minute I might be focused on this thing, and the next minute you'll see more of this thing. They're all pieces of me or pieces of my style, but they're all different. So I'm like, when I approach this, how do you want me to approach it based off of what you've seen that I already do? And then of course, they should have a photo of themselves or a photo that they love or a bunch of photos, because a lot of the best clients will give you 20 photos, and they'd be like, just choose one.
WR: Oh, okay. So that's actually preferred. It's not overwhelming to you or anything like that. The more you can see, the better.
JD: The more I can see the better, but also the more I can make decisions, the better. And some things are very specific, and I understand, especially depending on the context. It could be specific for someone, it could be a gift for someone else, so it has to be super specific. But sometimes people are just like, do what you want. I trust you. And I'm like, oh, this is great. You're the perfect client because now there is no room for what if I mess up? Or what if it doesn't look like them? Or what if it doesn't? Because you're open to my interpretation of setting
WR: When a client trusts you and it empowers you with that creative freedom to create your art. That's huge. So this is great. And so when people want a custom portrait from you, they need point of reference. Scroll through your Instagram and your website honestly to see your work. Let's see if there are specific pieces of yours that they're inspired by and that they really, they can pull those links and have those together. But then also it'd be good for them to have lots of selfies or photographs of themselves to submit to you in addition to that deposit. Because being deposit ready makes a huge difference in being able to say you want the portrait and then actually getting the portrait.
JD: Oh my gosh. And I've had so many people abandon portraits. I have a little section in the garage full of abandoned artwork that people never finished paying for, or they just were like, I don't want anymore, or, oh, I wanted it then, or it's just also following through. Have that follow through, even if it's not something you want anymore, be open to just saying that, don't ghost me.
WR: Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, now we've got it down on this podcast. Exactly what people need to be ready to go. And two, it's an investment. So I got divorced at the end of last year. I've been separated from my ex-spouse for three years at this point and got officially divorced last year. Something that experience taught me, which I think through my whole life, I've been aspiring towards because I've always been someone to take care of myself, but I've also always been somebody to prioritize other people at the expense of myself. And so part of my coming out and also reclaiming of myself and embodying who I am today has required me making investments in myself, and that has been making investments in my fashion, making investments in things that I otherwise would've considered maybe superficial or just not priority, because it's not a bill, it's not rent, it's not savings. This is something that's totally just on the surface. It's something that's just because, and so I think for me, one of the first purchases that I did that was a bigger purchase for myself was a pair of pink shoes. And so I love that the pink sweatsuit came up because for me, pink is also such an affinity color, and it's one that I had to really do a lot of reclaiming around, honestly, as a person who, I had a girlhood in the nineties, and pink is so associated with unquote girl.
And so for me as an adult, as a trans adult, coming back to pink felt very like it was for me, a thing that I reclaimed. So all of this to say that for me personally, making these investments in things that were just, for me, just because has been a huge part in me claiming space and taking up space in the world. And so I can definitely understand that for people who aren't necessarily artists themselves or maybe don't necessarily have the mindset to really invest in art, I can understand if something comes up and they needed to pivot from those projects. But also I think that investing in oneself through art is really important. Simply. Yeah,
JD: I agree. Because it feels like something that people can't do again, it feels like one of those things that's like, can I commission an artist who a painting can I do? It's like, yeah, of course artists aren't super scary. Just ask them. They can either say yes or no, or maybe, but most times if you have a favorite artist, you can reach out to them and they'll reach back.
WR: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I feel like I was very fortunate to have, I won a photo shoot by Photographer Hunter down in Durham, North Carolina, and that was a free opportunity for me, but it has definitely opened up just seeing like, oh, wait, getting comfortable with seeing myself through somebody else's eyes, and also using that as an opportunity to step into myself. That was really something that Hunter and I had talked about before. We did the photo shoot and then doing the shoot. I was honestly really surprised. I was like, whoa, this is who I am. And so it was really fun and it was so cool. And so I feel like for people getting portraits and investing in portraits, that's also an opportunity to, in some ways, rediscover yourself, to reclaim yourself, to make a statement about who you are. I really see art as portals of opportunity and possibility.
JD: Oh, I love that.
WR: You can really, honestly, I use art as an anchor for myself. I'm over here looking at, I have a piece by the illustrator. I think their Instagram handle is tall ass illustrator, and it is, I'll share, I'll have to find it and I'll share. I'm going to, for people who are listening, I will put all the links to the stuff that we're talking about in the show notes, but this piece that I'm looking at, it is a hand, and there is a child figure wearing Nikes in the hand, and there's a vine growing around it. And so I love Nikes, and I never really got to, my dad was the kind of person that was like, you're going to dog those out. I could never get the shoes that I wanted. I always had to go for the more practical, pragmatic option because it was so, it was the running shoes and the tennis shoes, and I was just like, oh, I could never get the ones I wanted. And so that's why my pink sneakers were such a big deal for me. I bought those when I turned 30, and I was like, they're full price. And they were filas, but I was just like, exactly. I was like, I'm going to get them. Exactly.
JD: Exactly. Those have a hot moment going on. Yes.
WR: Yes, yes, yes, yes. I love, they're so comfortable too. That's one of the things that I love about sneakers, because for me, athleisure is that's my comfort zone. My closet is mostly athleisure.
JD: Look, I want to be like you because literally as I'm, and what is it? I feel like I built most of my closet in my twenties, and I've just turned 30, and I'm like, wait. I was like, that's cool and all, but now I kind of want to just be cozy.
WR: Yep, yep, yep, yep. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So I am autistic, and that's also something that I learned late in life. I guess it was something I had questioned for most of my life, but then in 2020 and 2021, I really hit a level of burnout that I think a lot of people did. But yeah, the pace that I was moving at was really unsustainable, and I was kind of in a situation where I was already working remotely, but I began to notice how clothes were actually kind of painful for me going into the office and having to wear the same thing for nine hours or however long, definitely at least eight hours. It was actually quite constricting. And I think that there's a lot about what I thought about gender at that time. I would say that at that point in my life, I was definitely moving through the world as a light-skinned, multiracial Black woman, and I've always felt really conflicted about my identity, but now I realize that's because I'm a gender fluid trans person who is non-binary. But so one of the things that I did when I started working remotely was just I gave myself permission to not have to perform in that same way where being autistic comes into this is also that I just started to notice that certain textures really didn't work for me. And so that's where all my athleisure started to make an appearance in my closet. For sure, for sure.
JD: Now, I love to know that because it makes you really appreciate where you are at now, learning where you're coming from, and I'm listening, and I'm just like, I feel like I've learned so much about you, and I feel very connected to your story because you were so open with sharing it, and I'm really grateful for this moment of connection because I hear a lot of parallels in the story, even if it's flipped or reversed. I understand you.
WR: Thank you so much. I really appreciate this conversation as well. And also I'm curious and have a few more questions.
JD: Oh, yeah. Look, we could talk all day. As a Gemini, I love to talk.
WR: Yes. Word. Word. Okay. So I am an Aries Post Saturn return, Aries Sun, and all of my, I'll say transition I guess. So I am the kind of trans person where the way that I relate to my transness now at this point is that I don't really see a thing as post transition or as pre-transition or post-transition. I kind of see my life as the transition. And I'll say that's actually something that I heard on the Dem Boys podcast, episode 71 with Dr. Liam Johnson. Dr. Liam Johnson is a man who said, testosterone's just a medication. Your life is the transition. And that really hit me because that's also how I think of it as a trans person. I think that we bring whatever we want to our transness, we are trans because we're trans, and that's literally it. Whether or not people use medication, whether or not people use certain pronouns. My whole thing with gender as a journey is that when I think of the non-binary culture that I wish existed, it is that I wish that bodies could be bodies. People could be people, that gender is not something that has these expectations attached to it or enforced upon it. And that definitely stems from a lot of the pain that I experience.
And so I don't want my life to be marked by pain. I don't want my gender identity or the way that I position myself in the world to be marked by pain. And at the same time, I'm interested in, well, what are the things that we need to do and how can we put things out in the world that enhance the culture or contribute to the culture that we want to see and would feel more affirming and would feel more welcoming or queerness and gender exploration, and for people to really come into their own, for people to tell us who they are rather than us bring our own conditioning of who they are to them.
So that's complex because at the same time, we're all people. We all have our own conditioning, I'll say around what is masculine? What is feminine? What does that mean? And what are my expectations of anyone in the world? And at the same time, I think that when I think of the future that I want, when I think of my liberated future, one where there's gender freedom and queerness and just safety, just the freedom to be and the freedom to express is such a huge part of the liberated future that I dream of for black people, black Americans, black families specifically because I believe that that blackness is so influential
JD: To everything,
WR: To everything, everything in this country, speaking in the quote United States, but then also globally.
And so something that I long for is I didn't get to have a queer childhood. There's a lot to that in terms of my relation to blackness, in terms of my relation to queerness, I also grew up in the church. So yeah, I think that for me, part of my reclaiming all that I am is like, well, this is what I want for the future. I want black kids to be able to be queer. I want black kids to be able to tell us who they are. I want, and I know that that will change the world because the world already knows how powerful and influential and how dope we are already
JD: By far,
WR: By far, that's literally not even a question. And so I'm like, okay, well, I want black kids to have safety. I want black kids to have freedom. I think of the seeds that I'm planting, that is what I'm planting for.
JD: I think we have the same idea of what the future should look like, what I would wish for it to look like. And I honestly think that this conversation and the future conversations that we're going to have are going to be a part of those stepping stones to get there. I kind of see what we're building now just because I just saw Wicked. I see it as a yellow brick road, and I'm like, we're building it brick by brick. We've got to continue to have these conversations. We've got to continue to be showing up each day as it comes. I feel like maybe sometimes, and maybe we're conditioned by society to show up how we think others feel, we should, but I feel like it's okay to exist in whatever moment you're in, good, bad, or indifferent to whoever else is viewing. And I feel like being comfortable in those settings, being comfortable with other people, being who they are in that moment and having these conversations continuously, it'll just keep trickling around.
I'm going to say trickling around because we're trying to not only share space with each other to inspire one another and to inspire others like us, but it's trickling past us to people not like us, to people who are curious about us or people who want to learn about what's going on, or people who are just like didn't see it like that. Now that I've heard your story, I finally see it. And I'm not saying we're representations of what that's supposed to be for people, but these kind of ways that we use our voices and utilize our art is a way for people to see a peek into a peek behind the curtain, as you can say, going back to The Wicked and the Wizard of Oz, the wizards behind the curtain, and they're like, wow, okay. The wizards just like me and you, the wizards just pretty chill and regular. And I hope that the work that we're all doing and creating will continue to influence people to go past what they think is this projection that they've created of what life should be. Life doesn't have to be anything. It can be everything and nothing all at the same time, but it's what you make it. And one else should be able to judge you for making it how you want to.
I think about a lot of the paintings I do, and I go like, wow, maybe it doesn't resonate with anybody today, but maybe it'll resonate with somebody 20 years from now, 30 years from now who's not even born yet. And they'll see it and they'll be like, wow, this is me. And I'm like, okay, well, that's why I made that thing then. Maybe it wasn't for the people of right now. It's for the people who haven't gotten here yet and need it, they'll need it one day.
WR: Wow, Justice. That's powerful.
JD: Thank you.
WR: That’s powerful. Being able to just, I really appreciate how that confidence stance, you're not judging yourself for the work. You're like, oh, maybe it's just not time yet.
JD: And I feel like the algorithm makes you feel like specifically because we share our work online, most of the time people feel like nobody's seeing it. Nobody's resonating with it. This isn't, maybe I shouldn't. And it's like, no, no, no, still do it. Still make it. Still do it because you have to create for you, not an algorithm. So I'm authentically creating for me, and if it resonates with those folks, it'll find them. Whether the algorithm pushes it to them or not, it'll find them.
WR: Right. 100%. Okay. So you said earlier on that you, there's a question in here somewhere you were spurred to create because you felt like there was something missing. Was that the beginning of your like, well, I'm going to do it then, or was there kind of a journey to get to that point?
JD: It was a slight journey, I'll say, because I went to fresh out of school, fresh out of high school, the first thing I thought I was supposed to do, and then this is going off of what the norm seems like. I got to go to school, got to pick a school, got to go to school. That was the thing. And then you got to pick a major
WR: School as in college,
JD: School is in college, got to go to college, got to pick a major that will make money. And at the time, I just had this thought just based off of just things you hear, that art wasn't a thing that could make you a living. And so I did not go to school for art. I went to school for social work, and I only went to school for social work for a year before realizing that my brain wasn't fully developed, and maybe I shouldn't have made such a big decision with my life at that moment. I don't think I was ready to make that decision to go to that school and do those things. And even though I was good at school, I felt like, okay, wow, this is not what I thought it was. And I actually hated school, not because of the work or what we were learning or whatever. It was the culture of school that I hated. It wasn't this utopia of openness that I want in the world very much. It was what it was, and it wasn't good. And so I thought, I think college was a little bit different, but it was still more of the same because
WR: Did it feel like a box?
JD: It felt like a box, but it felt like season two of the same show. There are new characters, but they represent the ones you just saw. So it was like, okay, that's a thing. So when I left school, I went to study fashion design underneath a local designer who had opened up a business, and he was doing some stuff with that, and I only was there for nine weeks before he closed the school.
WR: Oh, wow, okay.
JD: He had personal reasons as to why he closed the school, but being 18, you're just like, oh my God, another thing formed against me. Everything feels, yeah, I thought
WR: That was devastating, especially because I'm just imagining you being like, oh, social work, not it. When I think of it, I've had great therapists who are social workers, and I'm so appreciative, and I think that people in that career are doing the Lord's work.
JD: You know what? I actually, I was really passionate about it and still have a passion for it in a different way now than I did then. But I think about it and I'm like, I hated the adults that were centered around it. And it was very much like we had to go on assignments and do certain things. And I understood that confidentiality was way more important than me getting a grade. And so when I was working at the time, I was working with children, and the professor was always very invasive, trying to make assumptions based off of stereotypes or just to get information about the child that I'm referencing. And I'm like, I'm not sharing with you parts of this child that they decide to share with me. They wrote comfortable with me in this setting to share these things. So no, I'm not going to write about it for a grade. No, I'm not going to share that with you. So we always had fought about that, and I felt kind of like, am I fighting a losing battle? Am I supposed to be telling you all of all these personal things? And I feel like you don't care about any of the personal things that I know because you're making up all this stuff before you even asked. You just made up all these untrue things based off of these stereotypes. And I'm like, this is not what I thought this was going to be.
That's where I kind of lost the love for it. I was like, not this boomer is in here, just kind booming around and making this thing that it's not, it just made the whole thing kind of gross to me, but it made me see it in a different way. And I, when you're in a certain profession, you have certain cases, you have to share 'em with certain people, but I would hope that those people aren't stereotyping and being gross around the people they're trying to service.
WR: Yeah. I think that, well, one, thank you for sharing all of that. I think that's something that I have kind of deeply explored in my adulthood too, has been honestly getting really curious about capitalism, getting really curious about systems and infrastructure, and just realizing that people who work within fields have a level of influence, like you said, with the person who was your contact for JD Sports, that was an individual who worked within a company
At the same time. It can be so hard to really affect the kind of change that you want to make when you are an individual within a system, because there's a lot of bureaucracy and red tape, and like I said, those higher ups who have their own quotas and things that they have to fulfill that might be at conflict with what you think is best or what you want for the work that you're doing. And in that case, speaking to the confidentiality of the child, there's a lot there. There's a lot there. So yeah, thank you for sharing that.
JD: No, no. I am grateful to have shared it because I don't talk about that part of my life often. It just felt like such a, it feels like a blur now. It felt like a blink, but I also feel like that's just like when you're in the moment of things, it just felt so intense. But now it's just so far away, and I'm looking back at it, I'm just like being as young as I was and trying to do that work and trying to jump into it, I was like, I wasn't ready for it, and I didn't like how it was being shaped, and I didn't like how they were trying to shape me to think about that work, and I didn't like it. So when I left that school, I tried to design thing that didn't work, that
WR: The fashion design. So that's quite a pivot. So what kind of led you to that?
JD: I think what really led me to it was the fact that I knew I had to do something. And again, I was like, okay, well, you tried this thing that didn't really work, and maybe fashion design is art in a sense. So I was like, maybe you could try that and it'll be more fruitful for you money-wise later, because everybody's wearing clothes every day. So I'm like, oh, I can try this thing. And I did nine weeks of it before the school was closed, and it was really fun. Designing is a lot more technical than I ever imagined it would be. Again, I'm just like, you watch Project Runway way and think, oh, I could make that in an hour. And no, no, it's not. Those people make it look a lot easier than it is. And so I really found my love for it, but because it was cut short, it made me feel like it wasn't meant to be. And so my parents were like, well, you always like to make art, so why don't you just make some art, make art, do that. And that's kind of where it started. That was the, okay, I'll start creating
WR: Wow. Okay. I love that your parents were so supportive.
JD: Yeah.
WR: And so did you invest in some supplies and just start making paintings?
JD: Actually, they invested in the supplies. The first they invested in that. And then I just started making paintings. And it was kind of weird because I want to say, and it's very full circle. So I made paintings, and then my first showcase was actually in the same space where my fashion design school was. So that school was closed now. And so it was just this empty space, and somebody was renting it out to do a sneaker convention or some sorts. And they were like, oh, they have all this wall space. We need art. Do you want to hang up art? And I was like, sure. So I filled the room with art and I was like, okay, this is full circle. I was here for one reason just a few weeks ago, and now I'm here for this reason.
WR: Wow.
JD: Maybe I should be doing this thing. And so that was a thing that kind of perpetuated me to keep going because the space, definitely the person who owned the space was like, oh, we need to be bringing people in here for first Friday. It's right in the middle of first Friday. Do you want to just showcase stuff every month until we figure something out? And I was like, sure. So every month I was just making a bunch of stuff to fill that space, and I had just started and I was just like, oh, this is cool. Maybe this is what you got to do. Yeah. Having no context around what it actually took to be an art or to be an artist or to be in the fine arts, but I was just doing it, just winging it.
WR: Yeah. Wow. Okay. So a thread that I feel like is coming through in your artistic practice is it seems like there's, your integrity is really important to you, your integrity and what that means for your identity and voice. You sound very self-assured in the work that you create or the work that you want to see in the world, and it seems like that is the foundation of your work and you honoring that. It's just cool to hear how opportunities opened up for you when you got serious about the work that you wanted to make.
JD: It is weird because that hasn't stopped. The opportunities coming when I get serious about it hasn't stopped. I feel like when I worked at that store that I can't really talk about too much. When I quit, I had no plan. I was just like, well, granted, I was still doing art on the side, but it wasn't my main thing. And when I quit I was like, well, I don't really have a plan, so I'm just going to be out here. The next day the phone rang and it was like, do you want to do these six murals at BCU? And I was like, oh, okay, sure. And then the next day after that, it was like the US Embassy was like, we want you to come to Cuba and do some murals over here. And so it was one of those things where I was like, wow, I didn't have any of this. I didn't see any of this for me. But the moment when I decided to choose the things I actually care about, the universe was like, here you go. Here you go. Enjoy this. Try this. Even though you've never done that, this is another creative thing for you to do.
So I'm grateful for that being a revolving door for me.
WR: Talk about the mural that you had in Cuba or the murals that you had in Cuba, because that was one more piece from your Instagram that I had pulled up where that just seems really, really cool. And all of these figures, it looks like lots of queer love in Cuba.
JD: Oh yes. Honestly, that project we're coming up on the year anniversary of it, which feels crazy. Like, wow, it's been one a year ago. When I got asked to do it, it was one of those situations where I was like, you can't say no, even though you've never done it. Although my first thought was to be like, hell no. I'm not going to get on this 20 foot wall and do this big piece of art that just seems really scary, but I'm actually really happy. I said yes, because it challenged me in ways that I needed to be challenged. And the idea for the project was to have, I believe it was 11 or 12 of us from different countries, and it was only four of us who were muralists, but everyone else was either a photographer or doing something more tactile with their work.
And the four of us who were muralists and the photographers too. All of the prompt was internal conflict. And for me, I thought about, and it was about internal conflict, where you're from. And so I thought about how being a queer person is an internal conflict at first, but then I thought about how it feels to get on the other side or to the end of that rainbow and how I wanted to showcase that. And so I wanted to show that through different relationships. Of course, I felt like I had a representation of a couple together who was more mature, and then beside them, lemme see if I can remember correctly beside them. I have a kind of symbol of younger love, like a younger queer love, a love that a lot of us who are adults today didn't get to experience because of the internal conflict or the fear.
And so that was something that I thought would be really important because I feel like even now I'm seeing more younger queer relationships happen that I'm so proud of because I'm like, you should be able to take whoever you want to prom and date whoever you want at 15. That should be a normal thing that a lot of us did not get. But I'm happy because seeing it, we're seeing it evolve. So that's why I wanted the younger love and the next to them. I have a black trans woman that I met in, we met in LA in September that year, and we were talking about art, and she was telling me, she was like, her name's Sunshine. I absolutely love her. She was telling me, and we started talking about art, and she was just talking about how she had never seen, I was like, with what? And she started to point to her neck and kind of do this gesture. And I was like, oh. And she was like, it is beautiful to me. It is not maybe for everyone, but she was like, I love mine and I would love to see a portrait with that. And I was like, oh, okay. I was like, so now when you're doing representational works, you need to have these conversations to accurately represent people sometimes as artists, and it even goes back to my earlier point. People just think they know best about just because I feel like I know best, so I'm going to paint it this way, but I didn't know best. And so I was like, I'm glad me and her had that conversation because no idea that that was going to happen how she wanted to be portrayed, because that conversation really resonated with, it's just really rare for trans folks to get their flowers while they're alive and while they're, well, I feel like a lot of times people wait until it's too late and then it's like, oh, we should have done all these things. We should have celebrated this person. We should have. And it's like, no, we can, there are so many beautiful trans folks around us who deserve to be celebrated, who deserve to be asked, what does representation feel like for you?
And then we go through that together next to her. I have two, I want to call them clubbers. They kind of represent a part of me that's like, yeah, I'm going to Publix, but I'm going to wear my platform shoes and my blazer and my glitter and all my things. They just represented those girls that are those girls in every setting. And I really have fun telling that story within that mural.
WR: It's so inspiring, encouraging, and honestly, it just makes me even more happy to know that you are existing and creating art in the world because there's a lot of intentionality that you put into the work that you create. Okay. I feel like we've had such a lovely conversation about being art representation and possibility, and so thank you for what you shared specifically about the painting with the black trans woman and just word giving people their flowers while they're here. That's certainly something we need more of, I think, especially thinking about 2025. Thank you so much for your time, justice. Thank you for sharing your story and really sharing so much about yourself, about art, about fashion, about your family and everything that you're doing and creating in the world. Where can people find you and also what are the kinds of opportunities that you're hopeful for or looking to take on?
JD: Everybody can find me anywhere in the internet sphere at Justice to White. It's then my website is Justice Dwight Art, big Car to Buy. That's where you can get that. And as far as the future goes, I'm really hoping that more opportunities come sometimes getting all the things, and then other times there's not a lot of 'em, and I feel like I'm in my no season, but the no season just leads you up for more yeses. So I hope next, doing more gallery work, doing more work with companies like JD Sports who want to support my voice and continue to showcase my work appropriately. I'm also working on new series of works that are nothing like the works anyone has seen from me before because it's in a whole new style that I have not shared. So exciting. That's been really fun to dissect and to see where this is coming from and what these things mean.
WR: Yay. Okay. So that's super, super exciting. I will have links to everything, to your Instagram, to your website, your shop, where you sell prints, and if people wanted to get custom portraits for you, should they just go to your contact page?
JD: Yes, they can contact me, they can DM me, whatever feels comfortable. If it feels like you can talk to me through it, I check all of it, so however they feel.
WR: Okay. Well thank you so much, justice. This has been super, super fun. Thank you for being my very first guest on The Genders A Journey podcast, and I can't wait to see all that you're going to create and I'll definitely be looking forward to seeing your new style.
JD: Thank you. Thank you for having me. This has been super, super fun. I am grateful for you and proud of you because you are using your voice, and I think that's something we need more now, more than ever.